020: Why We're Better Together

Announcer: 

Welcome to Ashes to Wings, where we tell stories of overcomers, and give you tips and tricks to living a fuller, more embodied life. Here's your host, Jenni O'Connor.

Jenni:

Hey friends! Welcome to Ashes to Wings. Today we'll be talking with Carrie Sackett. Carrie is the founder of ZPD Coaching, a life, career, and relationship coaching practice. She works with individuals, couples, and groups who are ready to make a serious commitment to personal growth. Carrie has been practicing social therapeutics for 25 years. A passionate advocate for women connecting with their bodies and closing the often physically and emotionally painful mind-body gap. She has recently added somatic coaching to her practice. Carrie co-leads an ongoing workshop series, Uncomfortable Independent Conversations. UIC brings together individuals who are interested in having conversations that transform their experiences of race, class, and gender in America, and move us closer to one another. Carrie, thank you for joining us today.

Carrie:

Thank you, Jenni. It's great to be with you.

Jenni:

So great to see you. So Carrie, what led you to coaching?

Carrie:

Well, I grew up in a pretty troubled home of divorced parents and alcoholics, and I basically raised myself. And in that context, was also very sensitive, even as a kid, to people's emotional pain, and I wanted to do something about it. And I decided as a kid that I wanted to be a psychologist. However, when I got to college, I started having questions about the methods of psychology. And I went out instead after college looking for innovators. And I found this multi-racial grouping... grassroots-facing grouping of innovators who were creating strategies to create a new psychology. And ultimately, I trained as a social therapist in New York City at the Side Institute for Short Term Psychotherapy. And today there are hundreds and hundreds of practitioners using social therapeutics, as therapists, coaches, performance activists, educators...

Jenni:

Tell me what Social Therapeutics is.

Carrie:

Well Social Therapeutics is a philosophically-informed, and practically-oriented approach to continuous life development. 

Jenni:

So, explain that like I'm five. [both laugh] Break it down for those of us who aren't in the industry.

Carrie:

So, it's an approach that's a group-based approach. We humans are social beings. We develop our emotions in relation to others. Our emotional pain is in relation to others, and likewise the cure for our emotional pain is created and built with others. So social therapeutics focuses on the activity of building and creating with others. That is how we grow emotionally.

Jenni:

So you said you had a bit of a difficult upbringing. Did you do group therapy yourself?

Carrie:

I did, I was in a social therapy group for many many years, that's how I grew as a kid. I, as I said, I sort of grew myself up. There are all these things I didn't learn. I didn't learn how to stand up to bullies, I didn't learn how to ask for help, I didn't learn how to say what was going on for me emotionally. I kept everything inside. And group work is so powerful and immediately impactful. It's safe to do new things and try new things, in relation to others. Which I didn't mention about social therapy... we're relational beings, that's how we grow emotionally, it's how we relate to each other. And so, it had a huge impact on me doing that work, and I now have the privilege of being able to give that to others.

Jenni:

What role did groups play in your life personally that family didn't?

Carrie:

I love that question. It's an amazing question. I was a competitive swimmer as a kid, which meant that I was on a swim team almost year-round, with the same grouping of kids, and the same coaches. And that was a place of community for me. And I joke with my friends that I survived adolescence by spending most of it underwater. [both laugh] The real truth is that I survived my growing up because I was part of a community of people that was doing something together.

Jenni:

It's gotta be so meditative and a bit of an escape to be swimming. You know, I'm thinking if you're swimming laps and you're underwater... and you can just block out the outside world... it has to be an amazingly therapeutic way to handle things.

Carrie:

Yeah, well that makes me think of embodiment. In the working out, there's no room... or it wasn't for me anyway, or maybe it was the valve of... I didn't have to be thinking. I didn't have to be thinking about "what caused what to happen in my life?" or "how come I was feeling so terrible?" It was really a non-thinking activity. And that certainly saved my life. We think way too much. 

Jenni:

Yes, yes, and it's amazing how when we connect with the body, it sort of pulls the emotions along. It doesn't escape me... the irony doesn't escape me that you were frozen and had no voice, and now you've moved into a space where you work in Somatics where you use your body, and you're a coach where you use your voice. So, how did that embodiment change you?

Carrie:

It's... it's empowered me. It's allowed me to be a builder and creator of my life. And that's what I help my clients to do, is to be builders and creators of their lives. Rather than to be followers of a script or (I mean we all do this), or be judging ourselves or comparing ourselves or explaining ourselves. Those things can get us caught in a fly bottle that's very hard to get out of. And that's why group work is so important.

Jenni:

And I'd imagine that it's pretty common for people to be a little bit nervous about going into a group. That they're gonna be judged, or... or not fit in. So what advice do you give people who, like me, are a little bit nervous walking into a room of people that they don't know?

Carrie:

Well, first of all, everybody who comes into group has a relationship with me. So that's very important... they trust me. Sometimes we can build that in one session. I have several clients who've met with me once and come into group. Other times it's... it's more time. And I'm about to start a four-week group that we're going to kick off, and we're going to kick it off by playing some improv games. 

Jenni:

Oh fun!

Carrie:

So that we can bounce ourselves out of being in our heads, and free us up from what we think therapy is or should be, or coaching. Or who we think we should be in a grouping of people. So I say to people to give it a try... to try getting uncomfortable. Have you ever noticed how good little kids are at doing what they don't know how to do? Do they stop learning language and say, "I'm feeling a little bit uncomfortable, here, I don't know what to do"? They don't. They play, they keep going. And we have that capacity, as adults.

Jenni:

It's so important as adults to make time to play, too. I feel like it bumps us out of that comfort zone and it releases something in us that we've been holding onto. One of my favorite things is when we have somebody new at Studio Phoenix and she twirls around the pole and she's like, "I feel like I'm at the park playing!" It's so much fun, you know? And yes, we are missing that as adults.

Carrie:

Yes, yes. So, I can give you an example. I have a client who, after the first group, reached back out to me and said, "I didn't really want to be emotional in that group. That was getting emotional, and I didn't want to do that." And I said to her, "Well, why don't we give that to the group next week?" And she did. She found a way to say to the group, "what was going on for me last week was I didn't really want to be emotional." And then the group accepted that, embraced that. And that transformed her, that she was able to say that, do that, give that to people without having to overthink it, without having to explain it. It had a big impact on her.

Jenni:

It's so beautiful when you're able to create a safe container for that vulnerability, where people feel the comfort to open up like that. 

Carrie:

Yes. 

Jenni:

And I imagine working with such diverse groups of people that you deal with a lot of different emotions. How do you manage that?

Carrie:

Well I love that question because the sort of... in a short, pithy way I would say "Well I don't." Which is the beauty of social therapeutics. I'm not managing it. In a sense what I am managing is trying to help people build in the moment, to get closer with each other with their emotions, not to negate them. And sometimes I'll ask, I'll suggest a line. "Can you say that again in a way that might bring you closer to the group? Can you 'yes and'?" Which is a, you know, an improv term that is expanding its reach into all kinds of areas of our lives. Businesses are tapping into "yes and"... all kinds of places are tapping into "yes and." Yay for that. So an example, you know, the other day, one of my groups was talking about how they're now actually strangely comfortable bringing in the awkward things in their lives, the painful things in their lives, the hard things, and to work on them in group. And they have been won over that they're the ones creating the group. That's how that safe container comes into being. They've built it. It's not even by saying they want a safe container. That they're actually building it together, and that's very powerful. 

Jenni:

Absolutely. Yeah, when you have ownership over it you respect it more. You take care of it more, you protect it more. 

Carrie:

Yeah, you find your voice more. You find your power more. 

Jenni:

For those of us who hopefully have a diverse group of people around us... (you know, I always try to expand my bubble, and not just be surrounded by people who look like me, talk like me, act like me). What is an effective way to de-escalate a situation, if you come across a situation where people are disagreeing? To where people can communicate effectively with each other, and come to agreement when they're on opposing sides?

Carrie:

Mm hmm. I love that question and the answer to that... if we could all do it would change the world in a snap. [both laugh] 

Jenni:

Please tell us!

Carrie:

Well, I'm thinking about couples work which is a little different than what you're talking about, but helpful to see it. When I work with couples, they're coming in... oftentimes they've built this house. And maybe it's a pretty creaky, rundown, miserable house to live in. That's why they're coming to me for help. And oftentimes they come in pointing at a particular brick in the house. "You see that brick? My spouse put that brick in, and that's a horrible brick. Can you fix that brick?" And I try to find a way to say to the couple, "You all have built this house together. At this point, it's indiscernible who laid which brick. How about we attend to, you know, the repainting job or the redesign job, or how we're going to put in a whole new set of furniture? How can we do that together? What's best for the relationship? Can we do this from the side of the relationship?" And in a way, because I hear your question also attending to America, and the... and the systemic racism of America, and the institutionalism of how we've come to this moment... how can we have conversations that include that we have created this moment? How can we build and create with our differences? It's very important. How can we embrace each other's pain, and embrace the ways that we've hurt each other and create something new with it?

Jenni:

I think it's so easy to see the world through our own lens. And I think a big part of us coming together is being able to step into someone else's shoes and see the world through their lens. What advice would you give for people wanting to see the world through someone else's lens?

Carrie:

Well we do this a lot in Social Therapeutics... the focus is on the listening, curiosity, creating an environment in which you can be vulnerable, and also in which you can be playful. See, we do see through our own lenses, you know, and we're a very individualistic culture. So we really hang on to our lenses. And of course we've been shaped by where we've come from. But we humans have this wonderful ability to continue to grow throughout our lives. Where the old stuff is never going to go away, that's true for me, too, and who I am in my history. But where I stand now, in relation to that old stuff... that can transform. We can build other emotional muscles, and that impacts the shape and texture of the old stuff, and it impacts how we can be with others. 

Jenni:

I love that. It's so growth-mindset. It's not that I can't be empathic or I can't be understanding, or I can't see your point of view. It's that I need to build that muscle or I need to work to improve. I love that some of the projects that you've done with your groups are actual hands-on projects that you do together as a team. What is it about working together, hands-on, do you think it is that brings people together and helps repair relationships?

Carrie:

Wonderful question, and you put your finger on it. It's the doing. It's the doing together that transforms how we can see, how we can be with each other, and what we can do with each other. Me personally, I spent 25 years building the Independent Political Movement, which brought together Americans from all walks of life, to build a movement that would reposition the American people on the political landscape. And a lot of that was through structural reform. But what we did is come together from all these different places in America. Not knowing how to build together, but we did. And in the building together, came to see each other for more of who we were. More than progressives, more gay, more African American, more tri-corner hat-wearing white American. That was the beauty of it. And what happens in social therapeutic groups, is the eye is on the doing of it... the doing of the group. It's... it's so less about the content of it. But being able to ask the group, "Well, what's it like to hear me say that?" That's looking at... "how are we relating to each other" as important or more important than the actual content of the words of what we're saying.

Jenni:

It becomes "us against the problem" instead of "me against you."

Carrie:

Yeah. Well, you brought tears to my eyes. That's it.

Jenni:

What advice would you give to those who are working to overcome a difficult past?

Carrie:

Come work with me. That's my advice. I will help you. I will help you in building a relationship where you can take those emotional risks and be supported. To try new kinds of responses out To be able to try a new performance, is one way that we talk about it, in social therapeutics. To be able to say, "I don't know," and be heard and radically accepted in that moment. 

Jenni:

It's gotta help people with anxiety so much to have a space where they can try things on... 

Carrie:

Yes. 

Jenni:

in a win-win situation. It's a no-loss game. "Try that on and see how it fits." And see what the actual reaction is. And somebody sitting there, staring them in the eyeballs, in flesh and blood and seeing that... I think it's such a powerful, powerful thing you've done.

Carrie:

Thank you. That's sometimes how my clients describe the work to other people in their lives. Like, "Well Carrie, she's a really good director. She gives me these lines, and I decide if I want to try them on or not. And then I try them and I see what happens. And so does my spouse see what happens, and the group, and then we create with that."

Jenni:

It gives me hope to see what our kids are doing. I have two teenagers, and just seeing the difference in what their high schools look like now versus when I was in high school, and the advocacy, and the allies. What advice would you give to parents who are raising kids, who want to make sure that they're raising allies?

Carrie:

Get closer to your kids. Be curious. Ask them what they're up to. How come they see that way? What do they think about this? They'll teach you.

Jenni:

I think they have a better handle on it than most of us adults.

Carrie:

Well even "having a handle on it" might be presuming that they're right, and we old people are wrong. What if we can have that conversation as, "You have new eyes on this world. I'm so curious to hear how you see it." And then "yes and" that response.

Jenni:

Yes. And for those who have not done improv, "Yes and" is an activity where your partner will say something, and instead of negating what they say, you say "yes, and..." and you add to it. So it's this very open, growth-mindset attitude toward co-creating with someone, interacting with someone. And we actually just did an episode on that so if you go back and look through our episodes on "yes and," you'll get a little bit more information on that. It's a beautiful way to view life... is to keep adding and expanding and encouraging each other.

Carrie:

Yeah, in a way that makes me think of the beginning of our conversation about my search for the innovators. And I think that somatic coaching and social therapeutics... there are other things out there now... it's part of a wave of innovation. A wave of a new way of living and being in a world that is not as over-determined by roles. By knowing what's going on, or explaining it, or judging it, or comparing. "Yes and" is so liberating because it helps us break out of the very tools that helped make all the discoveries that we live with now. Which are great, but it's also... for us emotionally, those things aren't working out so well for us anymore. And we are creating new ways of being with each other. "Yes and" is fundamental to that.

Jenni:

Well Carrie, our podcast is called Ashes to Wings, referring to the story of the Phoenix transforming and rising from the ashes. I like to ask all of our guests this question: What does rise above mean in your life?

Carrie:

It means continuous life development.

Jenni:

Carrie, I always like to leave our listeners with a bumper sticker statement. So, a summary of what you've just talked about, that would fit on a bumper sticker. What would your bumper sticker be? 

Carrie:

Non-knowing growing.

Jenni:

Ooh. Can you expand on that?

Carrie:

Mmhmm! We are so sure that we know what's going on. We know what the other person is thinking. We know why somebody is doing something. What we discover in groups together, working together, is that other people have other perspectives and points of views and ways of seeing. And all of that, we can create with. That's what's powerful and growthful in our lives, is being able to overthrow our brain, and be more embodied and be more relational and be more connected with each other.

Jenni:

So good, so good. I have a few rapid-fire fun questions for you, if you're game, just to get to know you. 

Carrie:

Sure!

Jenni:

What is the best compliment you've ever received? 

Carrie:

That I have a beautiful spirit.

Jenni:

Aww, I love that. So true, So true. What is your favorite gadget?

Carrie:

You're talking to a dinosaur! [both laugh] I don't think I have a favorite gadget. I do know how to turn on the icemaker now, so that's... that was a new thing.

Jenni:

Well good 'cause summer's coming, so you're gonna need it. That's fantastic. What characteristic are you most known for?

Carrie:

Maybe being passionate.

Jenni:

Yes, and you have such a grounded passion. Beautiful. A silly one: what are your favorite pizza toppings?

Carrie:

You're speaking to an Italophile here. I lived in Italy so I'll tell you. It's called Four Seasons: it has four different parts of the pizza, and it has to be this way. One is mushroom, one is olive, one is artichoke, and one is prosciutto. No cutting, I'll cut it myself. Thank you very much.

Jenni:

Amazing, amazing. What book belongs on everyone's bookshelf?

Carrie:

"Let's Develop" by Dr. Fred Newman. You can find it on Amazon. 

Jenni:

Nice. Well Carrie, I know you have an offer just for Ashes to Wings listeners. Tell us about that.

Carrie:

I want to invite every one of your viewers and listeners to do a complimentary 50-minute social therapeutic coaching session with me.

Jenni:

That's so incredibly generous. Thank you, Carrie. And you can find that deal on her guest page along with the email. When you email make sure you mention Ashes to Wings so you get your discount. And Carrie's guest page is at ashestowings.net/carrie-sackett. Make sure you give her a follow. Carrie, thank you for joining us today. 

Carrie:

Thank you Jenni, thank you so much. And congratulations on the launch of Ashes to Wings. I think you're doing terrific work. 

Jenni:

Thank you so much.

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Jenni:

It's time for another review shout out. This one's from Reviews by Lindsey and reads, "JennI is the best friend you wish you had. Jenni is just wonderful as a host, making even hard topics seem easy to talk about. I'm so excited for more episodes to come out." Thank you, Lindsey! Make sure you leave us a rating and review, and you might just hear your review read on the air.

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Jenni:

Well, just to recap our episode and some of the amazing points that Carrie brought forth. The first one is: group work is powerful and immediately impactful... the sum is greater than the parts. The second one is: we can all develop new emotional muscles. And the third is: giving up knowing what's really going on is incredibly powerful. And again Carrie's bumper sticker was non-knowing growing. Don't assume you know everything. These fit so nicely with our values at Ashes to Wings, from the power of who you surround yourself with, to connecting with your emotions, to releasing into flow state. I hope you've learned something that helps you grow today. Don't forget to check out Carrie's guest page. Again that's ashestowings.net/carrie-sackett. Friends, thank you for listening. Don't forget to follow the show, rate and review. See you next time. 

Announcer:

Thanks for listening. The best way to learn is to teach someone else. So take one thing you learned today and share it with a friend. Find Jenni on Instagram at the_Jenni_OConnor and online at JenniOConnor.com. Subscribe for new episodes. Until next time, rise above!